Philosophical debates about languages

[Дерзкий Серхио]

The philosophical discussion about languages is gradually becoming a discussion about everything.

Yeah, we’re going off-topic. This is not a very good thing when you’re on a web forum. Check your mail.

[Пушистая няшечка2]

Yeah, we’re going off-topic. This is not a very good thing when you’re on a web forum. Check your mail.

Oh, come on. You can nest fifty quotes here, and create a Serbian language thread in the Motivation section, and no one will mind. And you care about going off-topic. This is the most democratic forum in the world!

Just kidding. I know that controlling yourself is a right thing. Check your mail, too.

[Пушистая няшечка2]

Hey Sergie, once you said that the matrix method definitely changes people's personality, and also that it would be too complicated to sum it up. I think I can tell something about it from my own experience. You may add something here from yours.

1. Matrix teaches you patience. Once you dreamed to learn the language the faster the better, and was very impatient to "finish with it". Now you understood that it's a physical skill, and it takes time. You learn how to deal with every long story in your life and make long-going plans. You are not afraid of long stories any more.

2. Matrix teaches you to achieve your goal and never give up. You'll learn that the feeling of despair and fear, like "OMG, I'll never be able to do it", is only an illusion and you must not succumb to it. You'll embrace mistakes and failures, because they are just the other side of success, and won't be afraid of it any more. You'll also learn such thing as "the second breath" and how it comes to you. All sportsmen know about this thing, but personally I haven't practiced anything like that since I was 11 years old, so during the matrix, this phenomenon was like a new discovery to me.

3. Matrix fills you with energy and vitality. From a lazybones who can't do anything to change his life and to whom every movement beyond reaching out for another portion of popcorn is extremely painful, you will become an active person who likes moving, doing something to improve his life, and is not afraid of hard work.

4. Matrix is a miraculous cure for fears and it also breaks your inner barrier to interacting with outer world. Talking to people becomes easier and more natural to you, even if before you were a terrible sociophobic. It doesn't mean that you'll get rid of all your psychological problems, but you'll certainly take it more easy and it'll help you to understand what to do next.

5. Matrix is a good means of psychotherapy in its own right. Before working by this method I was always nervous, and anything unusual about people used to annoy me. Now it's much better, e.g. when I'm reading a book and some people are talking aloud, I don't want to hurt them immediately like it was before. It's just a trifle to me and I won't pay much attention to it. I have no idea how to explain this effect scientifically, but I tend to think that training your muscles is what is necessary to be mentally healthy for a general human.

6. Matrix even rebuilds your nervous system. Not that if you were a mixture of choleric and melancholic, deeply emotional and sensitive, you'll become a total "don't worry be happy". But the negative sides of your temperament will be softened and you'll see how you can use the positive sides more effectively.

7. Matrix brings you into a generally good mood. I was always very gloomy and depressed (and still am, sometimes, for it's my nature), but since I had my first success in languages, I started to smile much more often and see things in a more optimistic way.

So, to me it looks like the matrix effect is very close to that of sport. No matter what is your hobby, if it requires some physical activity, whether it be playing a musical instrument, speaking a foreign language, dancing, skiing or martial art - it's very good for you.

[Дерзкий Серхио]

Hey Sergie, once you said that the matrix method definitely changes people's personality, and also that it would be too complicated to sum it up. I think I can tell something about it from my own experience. You may add something here from yours.

I think you’re right from 1 to 7. I still don’t know how to explain what I was talking about. I’ll write a few words, but I’m not sure I can express myself clearly.

Questions. Dozens of them. Thousands. The whole universe consists of questions. And here is this stupid feeling that you know most of the answers. You know you don’t but you feel it like you do. You know there are lots of things you don’t know, but all those things are not here right now. They’re somewhere else. You know a lot about yourself and about things surrounding you. And this feeling is comforting. You know what your favorite color is. You know what you think about this and about that. You have the answers.

And here comes a new language. You know nothing. No answers at all. Nobody ever taught you how to translate, so you can’t translate your old answers. You have to make new answers for all these questions. So you’re practically starting to build yourself from scratch. And you’re not a little kid anymore. Grown-ups answer questions not like kids. So now it’s two of you. The old you, a product of your environment, and the new one, which is pure you.

Don’t know how it feels if you can translate. Maybe you can ‘translate’ yourself into another language.

[Пушистая няшечка2]

So the difference between Sergey and Sergie does take place after all. It's interesting what you're saying, because I'd been learning the language from the wrong side for years, and still haven't developed such a strong English personality to speak about mine. It's also interesting that mastering a second language sounds like a cure for our mental barriers that we have established during all the unlucky experience we had. Does it feel to you that you have lost some of your Russian roots during your studies and thus there appeared a distance between you and your culture? Or otherwise, both languages feel like a bridge between two different worlds in your head, and it makes your Russian self enriched also?

Translating... that's a complicated question. Before I was taught to "translate myself" not into another language, but into a pitch black hole. You're lucky to have no idea about this. When I realized that you should never translate word-to-word, you have to feel the meaning first, and then retell it in your own words - that was something new to me, and it was extremely exciting! It's like you are trying to establish connection between two different worlds. Sentences differ so much in their structure, and they still mean the same! Or, almost the same. Although these two different worlds are mostly alike, there is never (and never will be) an absolute parallel, only some kind of approximation. It can be more or less exact, but it's still approximation. You'll never find a "spherical language in a vacuum" that is rich enough to express any meaning from any other language, even if some people say that Russian is rich enough for that, - no, boys and girls, it's not Divine, it's just a human language, and that means that being rich in grammatical terms makes no difference. I'm not sure that you understand me now, but this subject is difficult to explain. Now that I concentrated on my language skills, I think I started to lose the grip and can't translate something as easily as I did it before. What's more, I started to lose interest to translating. I just enjoy the languages the way they are, and that's enough for me.

[Дерзкий Серхио]

Does it feel to you that you have lost some of your Russian roots during your studies and thus there appeared a distance between you and your culture? Or otherwise, both languages feel like a bridge between two different worlds in your head, and it makes your Russian self enriched also?

It took me a whole hour to come up with the answer: I’m Russian. Both of me. You know, you’re good in asking tricky questions.

...even if some people say that Russian is rich enough for that...

I always hear it from people who speak only Russian, no foreign languages. Never heard it from a person, who really can speak foreign language.

[Пушистая няшечка2]

It took me a whole hour to come up with the answer: I’m Russian. Both of me. You know, you’re good in asking tricky questions.

It's not me! It's the matrix... sorry... the topic. I wasn't ready to discuss things like that. Were you? You know, I remember what was told in the original book about people who start to lose their moral norms when speaking a foreign language, and say things that they would never say, suggest to work as spies, etc. Did you experience this kind of bravery that was non-typical to usual you?

I always hear it from people who speak only Russian, no foreign languages. Never heard it from a person, who really can speak foreign language.

I think it's excusable for them to think so. When I didn't know any foreign language, I also thought that Russian's so rich and blah blah blah, because everyone around said it. Now I feel a strange mixture of two impressons at the same time. First: Russian is really rich - from only one side. It's more warm and cozy language compared to English, which is mostly practical, short and exact. Second: English is very rich in its own right, far richer than I thought. I want more and more. I wonder how I'll be able to cope with German and all I want to know if even English is so deep! I'm taken by surprise. It was completely unexpected.

[Дерзкий Серхио]

You know, I remember what was told in the original book about people who start to lose their moral norms when speaking a foreign language, and say things that they would never say, suggest to work as spies, etc. Did you experience this kind of bravery that was non-typical to usual you?

I did and still do, though I wouldn’t call it bravery. And by the way, no spying. The last one was for the protocol. You know, just in case. “Say things that they would never say” – this is exactly what I do. I say things which I would never say in Russian. Sometimes it feels good. Sometimes I don’t like it, because I reveal way too much information about my feelings and all. After that I feel uncomfortable. My most frequent English thought is: I really need to stop talking.

Warm and cozy, huh? Why did you say that about the language? What does it really mean? Look at the words you picked for the English: practical, short, exact. I can easily understand what you’re talking about. You say ‘practical’ and I think it’s easy to use. You say ‘short’ and I think you can make short sentences, which are not too wordy and still carry enough sense. By the way, I think ‘short’ means ‘elegant’ when it comes to languages, but that’s not the point. You say ‘exact’ and I think you can talk about things with as much accuracy as possible.

You say ‘warm’ and I think “What?” You say ‘cozy’ and I think “What’s that supposed to mean?” How could a language be warm and cozy? It’s not a place where you can get a cup of tea or maybe tequila shot on your way home after a crazy day. I think you said that, because you wanted to say something nice about the Russian language. And you don’t really know what to say about it because Russian is just a language. There’s nothing special about it, nothing great. We love it because it’s ours, that’s all.

Of course I might be wrong. Maybe I just don’t get that “warm and cozy’ thing. Well then, tell me about it.

[Пушистая няшечка2]

You say ‘warm’ and I think “What?” You say ‘cozy’ and I think “What’s that supposed to mean?”

It means that I'm bad at English, that's what it means. (*in a daark and gloooomy voice*)
What I wanted to say is that there is a wide variety of Russian's means to show tenderness. When we speak about someone or something, we can add there plenty of diminutive suffixes that show our warm attitude to the subject. All the languages I know are no match for Russian from this point of view.

“Say things that they would never say” – this is exactly what I do. I say things which I would never say in Russian. Sometimes it feels good. Sometimes I don’t like it, because I reveal way too much information about my feelings and all. After that I feel uncomfortable. My most frequent English thought is: I really need to stop talking.

How interesting! I never felt any need to stop talking. Probably because all my life I didn't talk very much. I also noticed this "lack of boundaries" in myself, and strange, but it feels very good so far. It is a wing-spreading feeling.

By the way, I think ‘short’ means ‘elegant’ when it comes to languages

Oh, yes! English is very elegant for this matter. Compared to our words, its words are feather-light. Try to translate "CRC Error" into Russian, and you'll start to think that Russian is clumsy. I don't know whether it's good or bad. I think it's just the other side of the coin. In some cases English is more convenient; on the other hand, some of our books definitely lose something when they become so "light". For example, NF's book sounds gorgeous in Spanish, but it seems to be an absolutely different book in English.

[А.М.]

You say ‘warm’ and I think “What?” You say ‘cozy’ and I think “What’s that supposed to mean?”

It means that I'm bad at English, that's what it means. (*in a daark and gloooomy voice*)
What I wanted to say is that there is a wide variety of Russian's means to show tenderness. When we speak about someone or something, we can add there plenty of diminutive suffixes that show our warm attitude to the subject. All the languages I know are no match for Russian from this point of view.

I think, Language cannot be neither cozy nor warm nor wicked nor cold...
People make language like that.
People can select 'cozy' words when they have conversation with friends but they can choose 'wicked' ones for their enemies. And I think, this is correct for any language. But native language is so "native". And when you use your native language, you are just able to select more words which you need in this time.

[Дерзкий Серхио]

It means that I'm bad at English, that's what it means. (*in a daark and gloooomy voice*)

I didn’t mean it like that. There’s nothing wrong with your English.

What I wanted to say is that there is a wide variety of Russian's means to show tenderness.

Ew, girlish thing. Don’t like it.

I also noticed this "lack of boundaries" in myself, and strange, but it feels very good so far. It is a wing-spreading feeling.

Be careful. You tell people about your weaknesses, people can and will use it against you.

For example, NF's book sounds gorgeous in Spanish, but it seems to be an absolutely different book in English.

Did I miss something? Where can I find an English version?

I think, Language cannot be neither cozy nor warm nor wicked nor cold...
People make language like that.

Oh, that is soo true!

[Пушистая няшечка2]

People can select 'cozy' words when they have conversation with friends but they can choose 'wicked' ones for their enemies.

I didn't want to say that there are no cozy and warm words in English. It's just when I studied English "officially", I dealt with translations. And I noticed that there are many things in Russian that can be called "untranslatable". Maybe I'll remember and name some examples.

Ew, girlish thing. Don’t like it.

It's not sickly-sweet speaking that I meant. It's... Oh, how difficult! I can't explain. Maybe there's nothing wrong with my English, but then there must be something wrong with me. I'm really unprepared for this discussion... Here's an example. I read Mary Poppins in English after I had read the Russian version. To my surprise, the original version seemed to me so stiff and formal. No "warmth" in it, as if it wasn't written for kids. Maybe our translator created his own version of Mary Poppins which led to my disappointment. Maybe I didn't know English well enough to "feel" the original version. I don't know. I always like originals more than translations, but not this one.

Be careful. You tell people about your weaknesses, people can and will use it against you.

Perhaps I haven't spoken to foreigners that much to see the danger. But I'll take your advice into consideration.

Did I miss something? Where can I find an English version?

As far as I know, the whole book isn't ready yet. But there is a passage (or a chapter) from the English version which is available in the internet. I sent you the link. I'm very interested whether you can see any difference.

[А.М.]

And I noticed that there are many things in Russian that can be called "untranslatable". Maybe I'll remember and name some examples.

I think, there are many "untranslatable" things in any language. Especially when you talk with people verbally. Facial gesture, intonations... you name it.
I agree, there are no "оньк" "еньк" in english. But I dare say that may be others things.

[Дерзкий Серхио]

It's not sickly-sweet speaking that I meant. It's... Oh, how difficult!

I know! I know! I was just kidding. I’m sorry.

Allow me to continue your thought, A.M. There might be other things... to discover.

[Пушистая няшечка2]

Okay, now we discussed the depth to languages, and decided that every language is deep (and rich) in its own right. It takes your whole life to learn even your first language, and here, as usual, the more you learn, the less you know.
And now, in this direction, I want to bring one more topic that's been interesting to me for a long time. The term "native speaker". What is it? When you start to think of it... it's a very vague notion. When a child was brought up in a bilingual family, he's a native speaker of two languages. When an adult person has mastered English from scratch, even very well, we can't say that he's native speaker... at least, to me, it would sound unusual. We usually say that he's a ESL (or maybe there's some other term). And what if this adult person has been living abroad for a long time and mastered the language very well, enough to work, to speak, to read books and newspapers, to write without mistakes. He's still not a native speaker or he already is? And why? Is there some age limit when you have to make it, or otherwise you'll never be able to say that the language is your native?
I feel like this border lies somewhere close to the accent border (12 years old or something). And also I suppose that being born in the country in question and knowing the realities is also important, if you want to bear this proud name of the "native speaker". If someone knows more about that, please share.