Philosophical debates about languages

[Сергей Кевлар]

1. Is it applicable for the people with solid language knowledge (I may speak badly, but I have enough vocabulary) and is there any reason to read simultaneaoulsy the text while hearing, since I think reading could be a barrier for perceiving what you hear (please correct me, if I am wrong);
2. If I am not mistaken, it is advised by the author to repeat what it is said in dialogues. How does it work -I mean should we do it after the end of every sentence of simultaneaously and loudly with the speakers?
3. How come that every 40-50 seconds long dialogue takes 3 hours a day? I seems to me a bit impossibe, as I reckon that it is rather a long time not to speak about those who have already some language skills...Do I need also spend 3 hours a day only for matrix?
4. Is it allowed to watch news, films as well as READ while being engaged in this matrix method? Or these should come after the matrix?If you ask me, I suppose that reading is very important (of course, if you can it and if you can afford it with your vocabulary) for expanding your stock of words...
I would be very grateful if you could answer my questions in details. May be the author himself could also do that...
Thank you.

- It is not good to make a comment after your teacher has done it, but he has frankly sent you to his follower (or disciple) and therefore I dare to answer to you. The forum is too big to read for you (and for me too because I try do not read Russian texts), so here we are…

- First of all I’d say I don’t know English as I wish with all my heart and soul. The second – my knowledge could be better if I found out the method earlier; I’ve believed I lost a lot of time just thinking: “how ignoramus I am” (in Russian way). And the third – to get the method you have to trust in it, because any ways leading to the goal are starving for a belief.

And your questions…
1. I think so, but your must read the book one more time and “to put two and two together”. viewtopic.php?t=56
2. viewtopic.php?t=93
the answer is here.
3. You’ll answer this question easily, I reckon.
4. Yes, no, I agree.

[Пушистая няшечка2]

You'd probably say that knowing a language is no doubt better than not knowing it. Most people would tell you exactly the same thing. Of couse knowing something is better than not knowing something. When you can, it's better than when you can't. It's logic. You can't communicate! You feel a total loser! What can be worse? Aren't we full of primeval hate and outrage at the very thought of being tongue-tied? Being useless, speechless, inferior, what not... That is no logic. That's something going back to very-very long time ago.

Let's have a quick look at the price you have to pay for your knowledge.
To master a language, you have to study three hours a day during at least one year.
To maintain your language skills, you have to contact the language every day. You are bound to it from now on by the invisible thread of responsibility. If you forget about it, you'll have no language. Is it what you were learning the language for? Most likely, no.
To differentiate your first language and second language, you have to control yourself. If you lose control, you may very easily start speaking a mixture. Is it what you were learning the language for? Most likely, no. So, make an effort every day. Be a good boy.
And this is only one foreign language story. What about two or more?

Imagine the opposite. Imagine yourself not knowing the language. When you don't know the language, you're like a child. You are not bound to anything. No knowledge, no responsibility. You are free to hear what you hear and flick through what you see without paying attention and making effort to understand. You're free to fancy whatever you like every time you hear the very sound of it.

Once I saw a news about a Chinese hospital. I don't remember what it was all about, but it was like they'd made a big mistake and implanted someone an infected organ. A very harassed-looking woman was standing before the hospital and hotly explaining something to the journalists. I didn't understand a single word. All I could think about was: "How beautiful! Like little bells ringing in the wind". I stood motionless. I was fascinated, charmed by this beautiful melody. I nearly said aloud, "Man, I want to know Chinese!"

And she was probably speaking about matters of life and death.

Why do we want to learn a foreign language so much? Will it give us a clue to eternal happiness? Most likely, no. We'll probably always keep searching in this life as we did before. It won't solve our problems when socializing - those lay deeper than simple ability to put two words together. This beautiful language, being before our source of inspiration, will turn into just a very useful tool that we don't even notice in our daily routine. Mastering the language will destroy all the fascination of how it sounds - when we understand the sense, we are uncapable to hear any sound. And still we want to learn the language and are ready to give our time and life powers for this.

Some people, however, choose not to do anything. They just don't want to, they have no facility, no inclination, they don't have time, they are not motivated, they are lazy. It's very easy to do nothing, isn't it? But strange, some of those people - not everyone, as you can never read in other people's souls - but only some of them are secretly envious to those who could have done what they couldn't. I know what I'm talking about, because I was that one. Envious one. Those who never experienced it probably have no idea what kind of envy it is - a weird combination of "I hate English and this is stupid subject for kids" and "Oh, how wonderful it would be to know English, Spanish, German - but I can't cope with such a simple language as English... I'm just incapable".

And if you only take a closer look, were these languages useful to me in my life or not? If they were, it was absolutely nothing serious. I don't need even English. Mostly I needed it for getting good marks in school and university. English at work - there's so little of it that I can easily do with Russian.

Isn't it funny?

[Дерзкий Серхио]

Isn't it funny?

“And I find it kind of funny, I find it kind of sad” (c)
I’m pretty sure they have all the time they need and they are not lazy. They’re just scared. Learning something new could easily destroy their little worlds. You know, those personal little worlds people tend to build for themselves and live there in comfort. The slightest possibility of destroying a world like that scares them to death. That was the sad part.

[Вэн Глин]

... ... ... I can easily do with Russian.

Isn't it funny?

Great! Wonderful! What an excellent Russian mind under English wrap!
How much of time do you do exercises by the matrix set?
How many months, I mean.
The fact you get a common linguaphone course, if you are running a matrix less than nine months.
And later if you ignore the book marathon, your mind stops developing on. Your english mind, I mean, of course.

[Пушистая няшечка2]

“And I find it kind of funny, I find it kind of sad” (c)
I’m pretty sure they have all the time they need and they are not lazy. They’re just scared. Learning something new could easily destroy their little worlds. You know, those personal little worlds people tend to build for themselves and live there in comfort. The slightest possibility of destroying a world like that scares them to death. That was the sad part.

You know...I think when someone is really motivated, he or she is eager to try something new and it greatly helps them to accomodate to the new reality. But even in this case, it's very much the matter of "knowing where to begin". I really wanted to study when I was younger, but the only method I could think about was learning words by heart, learning grammar rules by heart, reading with translating and remembering every word... and so on. How many times I was making plans like "Now, I'm going to sit down, pull myself together and start to stuff my head with very useful knowledge". As you can easily imagine, most of it never went any further than the plans. When my schoolmate told me that she was reading Tolkien without dictionary and advised me to do the same, I gave it no ear...I think I wasn't ready to take help from anyone just because I was firmly convinced that learning a language is something very, very difficult. That's the problem of those who ask me how I could learn this and that, and when I tell them about Zamyatkin method, turn out to have thousand objections against the method - because of not believing in any methods. That's the sad part, too.

And as for me, I still can't organize myself properly and achieve stability when learning. That's a big problem of mine. I admire your ability to spend ten or even twelve hours a day for your studies and your strength to do it. To me it's like the easiest way to make me hate the language... Every inconvenience, every single discomfort during the studies makes me extremely nervous. Every non-linguistic worry (like having an argument with someone) kills all my inspiration to study during this day. So I'm trying to spare my nerves, perhaps too much, I guess.

[Пушистая няшечка2]

Great! Wonderful! What an excellent Russian mind under English wrap!

Sounds like either a compliment, or a hidden sarcasm.
Which one should I choose?

How much of time do you do exercises by the matrix set?
How many months, I mean.
The fact you get a common linguaphone course, if you are running a matrix less than nine months.
And later if you ignore the book marathon, your mind stops developing on. Your english mind, I mean, of course.

Believe it or not, I have already had a good book and movie marathon, but still can't get through the matrix. It's true. The day I took the decision to start (and finish) the American matrix was 2011, 29th of July, Friday. God, it's the New Year coming. How much time has passed, and I'm moving - just - too - slow. I'm terribly afraid to make a bad basis, being terribly disorganised at the same time. It's starting to drive me mad.

[Дерзкий Серхио]

You know...

O-kay… Yesterday you were talking about logic. I love logic, it reminds me of Vulcan. I’ll try to use logic here.

But even in this case, it's very much the matter of "knowing where to begin".

They know where to start. You told them. What’s their problem now?

I think I wasn't ready to take help from anyone just because I was firmly convinced that learning a language is something very, very difficult.

Here’s the problem. They won’t accept help. They think they’re going to do something very difficult and they won’t accept help. Ms Logic is screaming in pain. She’s in agony. She’s dying! Why are they doing this to her?! From where I’m standing now, I can see only three reasons for that:
1. A person who declines help is too proud. Being extremely proud is kinda foolish.
2. He thinks he’s smarter than you. Thinking like that is kinda foolish.
3. He’s scared. Fear is the worst enemy of logic. Scared people can’t make logical decisions. They are too scared to think clearly. They often don’t even know they are scared, because they hide their fears from themselves.

I know you’re not a fool, so I see you in the group 3 back in your school days. You were one of them, so you should know all that from your personal experience.

[Пушистая няшечка2]

I love logic, it reminds me of Vulcan.

My first reaction was, "Of what?!" But then, even before using Google, I practically guessed the right answer. Hehe, I suppose that planet would spit me out like a dangerous foreign body. With my constant living by "want", "don't want", "love","hate", "afraid", "tired"... hehe...

You were one of them, so you should know all that from your personal experience.

Absolutely. In my case, there's nothing but to agree with you. In others' case, perhaps there is an element of numbers 1 and 2 in their reaction. Just listen to them. "I listened to your dialogues and I can understand them at once! What's the use of these dialogues for me? Why not make a thematical word list? I did this in my school years, it helped me! And what about accent? The accent is to be the least of your worries! Look, I can open my mouth and say something now. And I want to be able to say more than that. That's what I need, and not your accent!"
It's nothing more than arrogance, if you ask me. I both see and feel it. Why, I can practically smell it.
Or is it still scare? This arrogant person is very-very nervous when he says that. He barely controls himself. You'd think you touched the worst of his sore points when talking about English language. His enemy, the horrible monster, which's been torturing him from long time ago. And when I tell him "Ok, why don't you study in your own way?" - he is nearly crying. "No one will help me! I'll never learn this language! I just don't know where to start, and you're leaving me!"

I didn't invent anything. That's a true story. A typical "hard case", one of the innumerable children of the system. I thought I was ready to deal with it now, but I couldn't. Maybe, when I master at least the full matrix, or, as they say, conquer myself, I'll be better than that.

And there's one more interesting case. It happens when that someone tells you, "OK, fine. Whatever you say, boss". Then he listens to the matrix during two days, one hour each. And then.. he's starting to quietly ignore the studies and does nothing more (without telling me). When I ask him about it, he just says "Oh, I realized I don't have time for English". What is that?

With what I have, I guess I can add one more clause to your observation:

4. He thought he wanted to study very much, but it turned out to be a whim. He played with the matrix dialogues a little bit and got tired of it.

[Вэн Глин]

Which one should I choose?

Is it difficult to do a choice for you?

[Вэн Глин]

The day I took the decision to start (and finish) the American matrix was 2011, 29th of July, Friday. God, it's the New Year coming. How much time has passed, and I'm moving - just - too - slow. I'm terribly afraid to make a bad basis, being terribly disorganised at the same time. It's starting to drive me mad.

Well, in this case, you have no choice, again. Do your work with the matrix well and in May 2012 you will have success is guaranteed.

[Пушистая няшечка2]

Is it difficult to do a choice for you?

You see, I'm not sure about mine , but your English mind is even more obscure than your Russian mind, so... it really is difficult to make the choice, yes. I admit it.

Well, in this case, you have no choice, again. Do your work with the matrix well and in May 2012 you will have success is guaranteed.

I'm trying. I am! but honestly, it's not so simple as it may seem. Did you ever have a nasty feeling that the matrix is the hardest part of the matrix method? I mean, it's very much the matter of self-discipline, whereas the marathon part is just relaxing and having fun while reading your favourite books.

[Дерзкий Серхио]

This arrogant person is very-very nervous when he says that. He barely controls himself.

Sounds exactly like a scared person.

And there's one more interesting case. It happens when that someone tells you, "OK, fine. Whatever you say, boss". Then he listens to the matrix during two days, one hour each. And then.. he's starting to quietly ignore the studies and does nothing more (without telling me). When I ask him about it, he just says "Oh, I realized I don't have time for English". What is that?

It happens to me all the time. I think it’s because sometimes I’m kinda sort of overenthusiastic about something. People find it easier to give up and hope I’ll forget about it eventually. I think there’s nothing you can do about it, just don’t push it.

[Пушистая няшечка2]

It happens to me all the time.

Now that's interesting!
How many people have you tried to teach by this method?
Were they American people or Russian people, or somebody else?
Have you been asked any questions that knocked you out?
Has anyone embraced the method and started to study seriously?

I ask you all this, because, when "spreading the word" about this method, I have met some particular problems. Perhaps they are about me being too enthusiastic, and being a poor teacher, too. First: I believe that the method is the best way to learn the language. Second: I decline any traditional approach. Third: I can't clearly explain why.
This is particularly noteworthy, given that most people refused to read the book, because it was "too long", and asked me to tell them in short instead what the system was all about. And I... Well, I'm afraid I'm very bad when it comes to improvisation. And what's more, I just can't pressure anyone. I prefer to give them freedom of choice. If you don't want to study by "my" method, well, the best thing I can recommend is watching many movies and reading many books. They felt my lack of self-confidence and distrusted me. Maybe that was an additional reason for them to quit studies so easily.

[Дерзкий Серхио]

How many people have you tried to teach by this method?
Were they American people or Russian people, or somebody else?

Well, it’s not like I’ve tried to teach them, I just tried to convince them to give it a shot. The problem is I often forget about the difference between convince and persuade. And sometimes I can be very persuasive. They have no more arguments and my arguments are made of concrete and stainless steel. They say “Okay, I agree. I’ll do it” only to get some air. After that… well, you know what they do after they say okay. They were four Russians, one American and one Canadian. And after that I stopped trying because I’ve realized I have no idea how to convince people. And I know, most of the dictionaries say that ‘convince’ and ‘persuade’ are kinda the same, but all my American friends say otherwise and I used to believe them.

Have you been asked any questions that knocked you out?
Has anyone embraced the method and started to study seriously?

No and no.

First: I believe that the method is the best way to learn the language. Second: I decline any traditional approach. Third: I can't clearly explain why.

I’m not sure I follow. You can’t explain why the method is the best way or why you decline any traditional approach? In any case, I know an easy way to show them the truth. If you’re talking to a Russian, just say to him something like that “Okay, so why don’t we continue this conversation in English? What do you mean you can’t? You’ve been learning English since when? Since you were a little kid? So what’s the problem? Tell me about the benefits of that traditional approach of yours. Argue with me! Confront me! English, please. Oh, come on! You’re not talking! I am the one who’s talking here and I’ve started to learn English only a couplr of years ago. All I can hear from you in English is silence and you’ve been learning it for how many years exactly? And you keep telling me your way of learning is the best one? Wake up, buddy! Open your eyes, look at me! I do speak English and you don’t. Maybe you know a lot about English, but it’s me who can speak it. And yes, I know I make lots of mistakes, but I don’t care. My American friends don’t care. They can see I’m trying hard to improve my English and I earned their respect for that. And respect is the thing that needs to be earned, otherwise it means nothing. And respect from others leads to a stronger self-respect and there’s no need to explain why the self-respect is extremely important. And now look at yourself. All those years and you still can’t express yourself using English. Can’t talk, can’t understand spoken language. What are you, retarded or something? Your stupid ways of learning led you to Loserland. That’s where you’re living now. And you are my friend, so it hurts me to see you like that. Stop being a loser! Read the frakking book (no offense meant) and start working!”

That was the easy way, but the wrong one. I’ve tried it, it’s not working.

[Пушистая няшечка2]

The problem is I often forget about the difference between convince and persuade. And sometimes I can be very persuasive. They have no more arguments and my arguments are made of concrete and stainless steel. They say “Okay, I agree. I’ll do it” only to get some air. After that… well, you know what they do after they say okay.

I see! Now I realize that, however our friends reacted somewhat similar, the reason in my case was absolutely different. You are very self-confident when talking about the method because you've done it all by yourself, you can already speak fluent English, and you went through all the method from start to, well, the stage that you became even bored with the language which is not so challenging any more. You know how it feels and what it's like. So it's easier for you to tell about your personal experience.
And here's me, still trying to teach myself, not speaking fluent English, and (what's the most important thing in this story) subconsciously waiting from people that they would resist this "strange" method. I'm the one who has difficulties in self-discipline and pronunciation training in the first place. I still can't understand how to make it easier on me. No wonder I'm very humble when talking about the method, don't insist on reading the book and anything. No wonder they react like that.

When I speak to foreigners.. Oh, I just hit a very strong barrier inside me. I can't explain why. Perhaps I'm waiting that they will stare at me in disbelief and think I'm mad. Maybe I feel that the person in question just isn't ready to take it from me. Here's an example: once an American guy asked me for a Russian grammar book. I gave him a link to uztranslations. You know what he said? "I'm not registered at this forum. How do I do it?" And later I asked him whether he succeeded in downloading the book, and he said no. Now try to tell this bloke about Zamyatkin method...

The least that I can do is to cautiously drive the interlocutor at the idea that you have to listen first, that you have to read plenty of books without dictionary, that the pronunciation is important because it reflects your rejection from the language, etc. But I'm still not ready to speak about the method openly, as it is.

And now I understand what was my mistake. I was just afraid of the negative reaction of the interlocutor! I should have noticed it long ago - but better late than never. I definitely have to develop more confidence in myself. I even think that a bit of your "stainless steel" will be just fine for me.

I’m not sure I follow. You can’t explain why the method is the best way or why you decline any traditional approach?

It's both, I guess. When I say, for example, that you should loop these short dialogues and listen to them, and later watch many movies and read many books, I immediately get counter-arguments like: "I don't have time to watch plenty of movies, like you!" Or: "I want to finish first my Ilona Davydova course, and only then I'll come to yours, because I have to finish the work that I started!" - I'm really stupefied. Oh, you cannot imagine how many objections someone can invent when he doesn't want to study. I don't see what I can do about it, just to continue working on my own language skills, and thus, maybe, one day I'll find the truth.

In any case, I know an easy way to show them the truth. If you’re talking to a Russian, just say to him something like that “Okay, so why don’t we continue this conversation in English?”...

What a great monolog! I like it! Perhaps you were a bit too strict when saying all that, but very convincing. I can see only one reason why this didn't work. The person before you couldn't believe that this method would work for him. He probably thought: "Well, these strange matrix dialogues worked for Sergey, because he has a remarkable gift with languages, but to me this nonsense definitely won't do. I got used to doing grammar exercises and know that they are useful. Why should I try something so suspicious?" What do you think? Can it be the possible reason?